tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post3200813394288656484..comments2023-10-10T04:30:38.687-05:00Comments on Deo volente: Monday roundupDave Johnsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-64871777899299994402011-08-18T13:52:10.645-05:002011-08-18T13:52:10.645-05:00Hi All,
Good thread, but I too am ready to let th...Hi All,<br /><br />Good thread, but I too am ready to let this go (too much to do to get ready for classes) so I wont add too much in the way of new comment. I will just add that post tenure review is one way to address my concern, but it may not be the only way and perhaps clever minds could come up with others, so I would not narrow thinking on that point just yet. We are, after all, supposedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-49202761998368100122011-08-18T10:05:47.603-05:002011-08-18T10:05:47.603-05:00As we're all a bit exhausted by this thread, I...As we're all a bit exhausted by this thread, I'll try to wrap up my comments here.<br /><br />As Jonathan Bean notes, there is something of a tension between tenure as traditionally understood and tenure as a union matter. (This tension is what led to the tense exchange above between me and anonymous.) But there's more overlap than tension, I think. In any event, I think that public Dave Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-1698482373892135422011-08-18T06:44:45.297-05:002011-08-18T06:44:45.297-05:00Ryan,
I had to look up who Stanley Fish is (to be...Ryan,<br /><br />I had to look up who Stanley Fish is (to be honest, at first I thought it was another tongue in cheek "Pirates of the Caribbean" reference :-)) I may have been channeling, but I was not reciting. But thanks for the pointer, I will do a little digging around and try to learn more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-30800972341670625192011-08-18T04:57:26.767-05:002011-08-18T04:57:26.767-05:00Jonathan Bean (10:29)PM:
Check page ten of the Da...Jonathan Bean (10:29)PM:<br /><br />Check page ten of the <em>Daily Egyptian</em>. It doesn't mention a strike, but it does say, "As a show of good faith, we have been working without a labor contract for more than 400 days." <br /><br />It looks like the unions' goal was friendly awareness rather than frightened awareness.paranoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01305552154248972937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-90236766891782248572011-08-17T22:45:10.634-05:002011-08-17T22:45:10.634-05:00The mechanism for enforcing or promoting responsib...The mechanism for enforcing or promoting responsible scholarship and teaching for tenured faculty—other than thorough hiring practices, pre-tenure mentoring, and sound T&P evaluation procedures—is a real post-tenure review, one that includes the prospect of reassignment of duties and, ultimately, termination. Neither the reduction in force nor, certainly, the furlough article in the current Ryan Netzleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12817668798838164403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-62182967489463232782011-08-17T22:33:26.129-05:002011-08-17T22:33:26.129-05:00Thanks to 6:40 (et al) for those two comments: you...Thanks to 6:40 (et al) for those two comments: you have done a good job of disentangling two separate threads in the argument. I'll respond to #1 here, contractualizing tenure. <br /><br />You are certainly right that trust is not in high supply across campus, and you correctly analyze where the two of us place more trust. The big point, I suppose, is how much trust to put in contracts. Dave Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-62958402802244073342011-08-17T22:29:23.909-05:002011-08-17T22:29:23.909-05:00Aside: second time I've heard students ask a S...Aside: second time I've heard students ask a SIUC staff member in the gym about the strike. First time I was standing by a tour guide, second time some student workers were asking one of our physical plant staff what a strike would mean. So the strike talk has trickled down to people who really focus on such things: prospective parents/kids who bother to visit us check out EVERYTHING and Jonathan Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-8005359306325058892011-08-17T22:25:15.513-05:002011-08-17T22:25:15.513-05:00Wow, I was intrigued by the thread but now I'm...Wow, I was intrigued by the thread but now I'm exhausted (!). <br /><br />First, I don't think tenure is lifetime job security but as a FA member thinking in terms of bread-and-butter job security, I like the proposal to lay off in a certain order, with tenured faculty last. Members of other unions on campus were surprised that we (FA) didn't have such a seniority clause (which is Jonathan Beannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-59255671212723611732011-08-17T18:40:59.682-05:002011-08-17T18:40:59.682-05:00Now, onto the second issue, the nature of tenure. ...Now, onto the second issue, the nature of tenure. <br /><br />First, to answer your question; no I do not think that the administration should be able to lay off any faculty member for any reason provided that that faculty member cannot show that they were let go because of his or her “views” (to borrow your word). I agree that that is far too narrow a concept of tenure and I am not and would Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-25722391337616092562011-08-17T18:40:17.199-05:002011-08-17T18:40:17.199-05:00Dave,
As I see it, our discussion has (d)evolve...Dave, <br /><br />As I see it, our discussion has (d)evolved into two intertwined but separate issues: what you termed “contractual tenure protection” and the nature of tenure. To avoid misunderstandings I will try to separate the two sub-threads.<br /><br />You like the idea of incorporating tenure protection into the FA contract (for now let’s set aside what form that might take). I do not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-45483603345811606312011-08-17T15:05:41.602-05:002011-08-17T15:05:41.602-05:009:59: Thanks for that. You raise some fundamental...9:59: Thanks for that. You raise some fundamental points, and while I was indeed offended by some of what you said, I think this debate is valuable.<br /><br />One more quick answer. Here's what would please me: I would be very happy indeed were the BOT to substantially adopt the AAUP principles concerning tenure as its tenure policy and include a line in the contract saying that that Dave Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-30971978218789039542011-08-17T14:28:28.880-05:002011-08-17T14:28:28.880-05:00Dave, I am Anonymous 9:59
I will have to take a w...Dave, I am Anonymous 9:59<br /><br />I will have to take a while to digest your response, but I will clarify this at once. I did not intend anything in my post to indicate that you, personally or individually, had failed to live up to your responsibilities as a tenured faculty member. I simply have no knowledge on which to base such an accusation. That part of my post dealt with the nature ofAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-32386605340871276942011-08-17T13:35:40.050-05:002011-08-17T13:35:40.050-05:00What an apt anonymous analogy: Official actions a...What an apt anonymous analogy: Official actions and changes to policy documents of the SIU Board of Trustees; as well as new articles on reduction in force and furloughs in the SIUC Faculty Association's terms of service; along with the past year's history of vigorous negotiating and lobbying therefor; as well as the broader, arguably coordinated, American trend toward the hobbling of Ryan Netzleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12817668798838164403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-73764200179222905772011-08-17T12:12:09.465-05:002011-08-17T12:12:09.465-05:00You should not be surprised to read me say that yo...You should not be surprised to read me say that you have completely mischaracterized my position. I will allow others to characterize your claim that I have tremendously cheapened tenure and failed to live up to my responsibilities as a tenured faculty member precisely by attempting to articulate, under my own name, how tenure is to be defined and defended in the context of a financial crisis.<brDave Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-35670886044761757932011-08-17T09:59:06.236-05:002011-08-17T09:59:06.236-05:00Dave,
If I may paraphrase your position (correct ...Dave,<br /><br />If I may paraphrase your position (correct me if I am misreading your lengthy post[s]):<br /><br />• Tenure is awarded and defined by the BOT.<br />• The BOT has not changed its stance on tenure except (your argument) in so far as it now allows furloughs, and you have no information that it plans to do so but no assurance that it does not.<br />• The BOT could choose to change Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-55726021088613655432011-08-16T17:42:38.117-05:002011-08-16T17:42:38.117-05:00There's at least one error in my URLs in the f...There's at least one error in my URLs in the first part of my mammoth response to 11:47. To see the administration's proposal on "reduction in force", go to this address:<br /><br />http://www.ieanea.org/local/siucfa/assets/siu%20board%20rif%20terms.doc<br /><br />Blogging and parsing contractual language is a difficult combination.Dave Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-55481570296639492312011-08-16T17:39:38.775-05:002011-08-16T17:39:38.775-05:00[continuation: apparently I went over some secret ...[continuation: apparently I went over some secret Google limit on this comment!]<br /><br />If this policy is merely horribly drafted--which I think would be the most charitable interpretation, assuming 11:47 is correct about its intention, then a redrafted version could save us all a lot of grief. But even contractual language which alludes to the board's policy is, to my (reconsidered!) Dave Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-72646409769973235312011-08-16T17:35:31.131-05:002011-08-16T17:35:31.131-05:00I'm always happy to correct facts (and even op...I'm always happy to correct facts (and even opinions). But, as Anonymous 11:47 was pretty careful to do her/himself, I'll try to be clear about what is fact and what opinion. Looking into this matter has, alas, hardened my position: the BOT position is itself a threat to tenure, because it allows faculty to be laid off in conditions less than those of an outright financial exigency. <br Dave Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-35919422881877649262011-08-16T11:47:15.162-05:002011-08-16T11:47:15.162-05:00I am not a member of either bargaining team but as...I am not a member of either bargaining team but as I understand it, and I am sure someone will be more than happy to correct me if I am wrong (as to the facts)...<br /><br />(i) Only the BOT has the power to grant tenure and the BOT documents specify that T/TT faculty can only be laid off in a financial emergency. <br /><br />(ii) The BOT documents as they relate to tenure have not changed, andAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-55587123236938285812011-08-16T10:36:04.584-05:002011-08-16T10:36:04.584-05:00Anonymous 9:24 raises an important point: that lit...Anonymous 9:24 raises an important point: that little word "contractual" makes a huge difference. <br /><br /> If we could go back to the status quo ante, in which the contract was almost entirely silent on the status of tenure, but all could reasonably assume that it retained its traditional status, we'd all be happier. But, as we've seen, the BOT can change its rules at its Dave Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09100006856645294730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-45914473446678518822011-08-16T10:01:04.652-05:002011-08-16T10:01:04.652-05:00I wish we could vote to decertify the administrati...I wish we could vote to decertify the administration.John Reevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13764573067037206551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3492014659405332380.post-56070930463670212032011-08-16T09:24:03.578-05:002011-08-16T09:24:03.578-05:00Dave,
Without disagreeing with your take on the...Dave, <br /><br />Without disagreeing with your take on the subject matter here, I will take issue with one aspect of your post. The term "contractual tenure protection".<br /><br />Tenure is not defined by the contract between the FA and the Administration. It never has been, and arguably never should be. Tenure existed at SIU before the FA existed, and if the FA were to be Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com